[hercules-os380] graphics terminal

[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Is there something to replace c3270 that can
emulate a graphics terminal and how does
MVS drive graphics terminals?

Assuming I want an MVS-specific version of
Pac-Man.

Thanks. Paul.

[Joe Monk [e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

The terminal has to be defined in VTAM as having graphics capabilities ...
AFAIK, most of the turnkey bistro use 3277 for the term type and so can't
support graphics (should be like a 3279 something).

Joe

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
Is there something to replace c3270 that can
emulate a graphics terminal and how does
MVS drive graphics terminals?
Assuming I want an MVS-specific version of
Pac-Man.
Thanks. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Hi Joe.

Can I bypass VTAM by having it channel-attached?

Thanks. Paul.




---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@gmail.com> wrote :

The terminal has to be defined in VTAM as having graphics capabilities ... AFAIK, most of the turnkey bistro use 3277 for the term type and so can't support graphics (should be like a 3279 something).

Joe


On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 1:23 PM, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Is there something to replace c3270 that can
emulate a graphics terminal and how does
MVS drive graphics terminals?

Assuming I want an MVS-specific version of
Pac-Man.

Thanks. Paul.

[Joe Monk [e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

The controller already is channel attached :)

Joe

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
Hi Joe.
Can I bypass VTAM by having it channel-attached?
Thanks. Paul.
The terminal has to be defined in VTAM as having graphics capabilities ....
AFAIK, most of the turnkey bistro use 3277 for the term type and so can't
support graphics (should be like a 3279 something).
Joe
Is there something to replace c3270 that can
emulate a graphics terminal and how does
MVS drive graphics terminals?
Assuming I want an MVS-specific version of
Pac-Man.
Thanks. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

I don't understand. If I define a device in the
hercules config file, I don't need VTAM, correct?

And another question - how do I actually drive
a 3279? With TPUT? And are there enough
colors and resolution available to provide a
decent Pac-Man?

Thanks. Paul.




---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@gmail.com> wrote :

The controller already is channel attached :)

Joe


On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 6:27 PM, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi Joe.

Can I bypass VTAM by having it channel-attached?

Thanks. Paul.

---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com , <***@gmail.com mailto:***@gmail.com> wrote :

The terminal has to be defined in VTAM as having graphics capabilities ... AFAIK, most of the turnkey bistro use 3277 for the term type and so can't support graphics (should be like a 3279 something).

Joe

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 1:23 PM, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups. com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-os380@ yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Is there something to replace c3270 that can
emulate a graphics terminal and how does
MVS drive graphics terminals?

Assuming I want an MVS-specific version of
Pac-Man.

Thanks. Paul.

[Gerhard Postpischil [e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
I don't understand. If I define a device in the
hercules config file, I don't need VTAM, correct?

But you do need some other method. Prior to VTAM, that was either BTAM
(individual terminals), or TCAM. If you use EXCP, you also need to be
privileged in order to handle interrupt processing.

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
And another question - how do I actually drive
a 3279? With TPUT? And are there enough
colors and resolution available to provide a
decent Pac-Man?

BTAM or EXCP. TPUT is available only for TCAM and VTAM.

You need a device that supports triple-plane graphics in order to
generate your own multi-color images. The only software I'm familiar
with that has that is Blue Zone; Tom Brennan's Vista had an earlier
release, but he dropped that around version 25 (?).


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-os380]
BTAM or EXCP. TPUT is available only for TCAM and VTAM.

Ok, my current c3270 connects using VTAM I believe.
So let's see if I can get what I need with that.

Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-os380]
You need a device that supports triple-plane graphics in order to
generate your own multi-color images. The only software I'm familiar
with that has that is Blue Zone; Tom Brennan's Vista had an earlier
release, but he dropped that around version 25 (?).

I've thought of another alternative. Instead of putting
out an official 3279 data stream, how about I send a
data stream that c3270 can accept and pass on to
Windows because it is already in Windows format
(or close to it)?

Thanks. Paul.

[Gerhard Postpischil [e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
I've thought of another alternative. Instead of putting
out an official 3279 data stream, how about I send a
data stream that c3270 can accept and pass on to
Windows because it is already in Windows format
(or close to it)?

You could define a special device, and/or fake it (e.g., TTY). The basic
device must accept a CCW of 01-write, 02-read, 3-control, and 04-sense.
If you use EXCP, there is nothing that messes with your data stream.



Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-os380]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
I've thought of another alternative. Instead of putting
out an official 3279 data stream, how about I send a
data stream that c3270 can accept and pass on to
Windows because it is already in Windows format
(or close to it)?

You could define a special device, and/or fake it (e.g., TTY). The basic
device must accept a CCW of 01-write, 02-read, 3-control, and 04-sense.
If you use EXCP, there is nothing that messes with your data stream.

I would like to be able to log on to TSO prior to
running "pacman", and type "pacman" at the
TSO ready prompt.

So my normal C programs would use putline,
my graphics programs would presumably use
TPUT, presumably with some care required to
allow the data stream to go through, and
micro-emacs would instead use the write()
routine in the CVT (to be added!).

TPUT is presumably also used for 3270 data
stream, not sure if I can graft that on at the
same time so that I can use both micro-emacs
and rpf/rfe/ispf.

Actually I am not really considering how to play
pac-man, what I want is a web browser on MVS.
And also I would like MVS to be able to host a
website.

For the last few days my PC has been unavailable
because when Windows did an update the PC
became inoperable. I rang Microsoft every day
and they said they were still working on it. I
eventually resorted to self-help:

http://www.thecomputercellar.com/windows-10-1803-upgrade-issues-the-black-desktop-of-death-and-how-to-fix-it/

This has highlighted the need for me to get my
data off Windows and onto MVS, e.g. my email.

What I have been doing is getting PDOS/386
and PDOS/3x0 and MVS/380 and PDPCLIB
into a sufficient enough state so that I can
understand the world of computers enough
so that I can do a high-level design of all
components, including things that come out
of the blue, like making AM31 become AM32.

There is probably decades of development
required to move everything onto MVS or
PDOS. But I am now starting to see light
at the end of the tunnel with regards to what
I need conceptually.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Also note that ideally one day the terminal
that is displaying pacman/web browser
would actually not be connected to
Hercules via TCP/IP, it would instead be
an integrated terminal just like the current
integrated console.

But while waiting for Hercules to be updated
there is no problem using a separate
application. It's all just memory to memory
transfers taking place.

BFN. Paul.

[Gerhard Postpischil [e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
So my normal C programs would use putline,
my graphics programs would presumably use
TPUT, presumably with some care required to
allow the data stream to go through, and
micro-emacs would instead use the write()
routine in the CVT (to be added!).
TPUT is presumably also used for 3270 data
stream, not sure if I can graft that on at the
same time so that I can use both micro-emacs
and rpf/rfe/ispf.

TPUT is not the issue - how are you going to process keystrokes, since
only the attention and program function keys terminate a read?

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-os380]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
So my normal C programs would use putline,
my graphics programs would presumably use
TPUT, presumably with some care required to
allow the data stream to go through, and
micro-emacs would instead use the write()
routine in the CVT (to be added!).
TPUT is presumably also used for 3270 data
stream, not sure if I can graft that on at the
same time so that I can use both micro-emacs
and rpf/rfe/ispf.

TPUT is not the issue - how are you going
to process keystrokes, since
only the attention and program function keys
terminate a read?

At least when micro-emacs is being run, input
from the terminal will come from calling the
read() function in the CVT. read() translates
into an SVC 120 which is then intercepted
by Hercules/380 which then requests a
single character from the terminal. The
terminal in turn will be a telnet session,
and I would program that telnet session
myself, using pdptel or whatever, and I
would ensure that a read request for a
single character is honored.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

I vaguely remember circa 1988 someone making
a comment that graphics on the mainframe turned
the machine on its head, while a PC could manage
it fine.

I'm guessing that the trouble was lots of data
being sent over a channel.

But with Hercules, there is no real channel to
transmit data over (not even the internet
normally), and instead data is simply being
shuffled from one area of memory to another,
even when you connect your terminal using
TCP/IP.

I wonder whether it would have been possible
to have a screen connected directly to the
mainframe computer so that graphics could
be done as effortlessly as the PC, for one
very lucky superuser.

With our PC setups we are all basically lucky
superusers.

I suspect that the 4-5 second IPL times
achievable on our PCs can't actually be
replicated on the mainframe where the
data needs to cross a channel instead of
being shuffled around in memory.

BFN. Paul.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Do you mean "graphics" or "interactive graphics" or "GUI". When I worked on VM we had our graphics terminals connected via the 7171 and used the full screen escape codes to send binary data. This was VM so I am not sure if the same can be done in TSO.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 25 May 2018 06:03
Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] graphics terminal
I vaguely remember circa 1988 someone making a comment that graphics on
the mainframe turned the machine on its head, while a PC could manage it
fine.
I'm guessing that the trouble was lots of data being sent over a channel.
But with Hercules, there is no real channel to transmit data over (not even
the internet normally), and instead data is simply being shuffled from one
area of memory to another, even when you connect your terminal using
TCP/IP.
I wonder whether it would have been possible to have a screen connected
directly to the mainframe computer so that graphics could be done as
effortlessly as the PC, for one very lucky superuser.
With our PC setups we are all basically lucky superusers.
I suspect that the 4-5 second IPL times
achievable on our PCs can't actually be
replicated on the mainframe where the
data needs to cross a channel instead of being shuffled around in memory.
BFN. Paul.
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[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-os380]
Do you mean "graphics" or "interactive graphics"
or "GUI". When I worked on VM we had our
graphics terminals connected via the 7171 and
used the full screen escape codes to send binary
data. This was VM so I am not sure if the same
can be done in TSO.

Ok, I don't think I want a full GUI. I was expecting
the hardware (Windows + Hercules) to do that
outside of my application programming.

I want to start with something simple, like the
Pac-Man screen that even the 64k Commodore 64
was capable of rendering in real-time.

Can I have hardware assists that let me play
Pac-Man? I just realized that to control
Pac-Man from the keyboard it is not enough
to just react on single keypresses. I need to
react on cursor down being down, then
being released. So read() is not good enough.
I can instead code a direct call to some API
(ie SVC 120 intercept facility) to provide a
new hardware assist. In fact I would like to
get a USB-connected joystick to be able to
drive Pac-Man. Another SVC 120 hardware
assist I guess.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

The IBM 5080 graphics terminal was channel attached to the mainframe and driven by CADAM and CATIA running on the mainframe. Perhaps there is something in the way that worked which would provide some ideas on how to accomplish what you are thinking about?


Jim

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-os380]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
Is there something to replace c3270 that can

emulate a graphics terminal and how does
MVS drive graphics terminals?

---

Well, under AIX, but was working also
under FreeBSD/Linux and OS/2, long
ago, IBM had the "xant" (Internal Use Only) emulator
that was able to handle graphics
GDDM streams coming from VM/CMS.

I guess the sources of "xant" should
be still around ;-)

Peppe.