Discussion:
[hercules-os380] bluetooth
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-27 14:15:27 UTC
Permalink
I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to
Hercules/380 the same way that
TCP/IP was added, so that I can
run MVS programs to communicate
with other bluetooth devices.

I'm also thinking about having a
bluetooth network to replace Fidonet
to some extent. Whenever two
bluetooth computers come in range
they can exchange newsgroup
messages.

So I can envisage this being used in
villages in the Philippines.

In addition to that there would be
village to village connections using
UUCP over the internet or something
like that.

BFN. Paul.
Amrith amrith_100_k@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-28 10:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Don't you think it would be easier to just use mobile phones to send and receive messages rather than using a batch based os without any gui. If you intent to use mvs380 as a back end for clients to communicate with each other using gui then that's good.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 10/27/18, ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018, 2:15 PM


 









I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to

Hercules/380 the same way that

TCP/IP was added, so that I can

run MVS programs to communicate

with other bluetooth devices.



I'm also thinking about having a

bluetooth network to replace Fidonet

to some extent. Whenever two

bluetooth computers come in range

they can exchange newsgroup

messages.



So I can envisage this being used in

villages in the Philippines.



In addition to that there would be

village to village connections using

UUCP over the internet or something

like that.



BFN. Paul.











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kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-28 11:34:09 UTC
Permalink
That's a great question. So far my focus has
been on line-mode applications, but for a
news reader application I will need some
sort of menu system. I could use ISPF for
that.

Note that with Hercules/380 running under
Windows I can actually draw a graphics
display, and I could get micro-emacs
working in a similar manner. I got the first
page of 3270-based REVIEW to display (on
the Hercules integrated console) too.
If micro-emacs can work then that should
provide an alternative (to 3270 terminalsl)
way of displaying menus.

I would like to be able to do all my work on
MVS/380, and that means I need a way of
using MVS/380 to replace Yahoo Groups
so that I can read these messages. But note
that these messages are all text, so I don't
need a GUI, I just need a text menu system.
And I think the Hercules integrated console
is the proper place to display that, so that
I don't need a separate 3270/3215 terminal,
and it will rely on an extended SVC 120
API to drive the integrated console. I think
that ideally needs PUTLINE and GETLINE
intercepted so that I can run a STC or batch
job that invokes IKJEFT01 and output goes
to the integrated console. I think a menuing
program would drive the integrated console
using ANSI escape sequences, sent in
EBCDIC by programs like micro-emacs.
Probably with modifications to PDPCLIB to
get all input and output channeled through
the SVC 120 extended API instead of
PUTLINE/GETLINE.

I'm not 100% sure how this should all be done.
I'm not sure what prior art would suggest
either. Maybe prior art would suggest
channeling everything through TCP/IP calls.
After all, you can run emacs via a telnet
session.

BFN. Paul.




---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoo.com> wrote :

Don't you think it would be easier to just use mobile phones to send and receive messages rather than using a batch based os without any gui. If you intent to use mvs380 as a back end for clients to communicate with each other using gui then that's good.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 10/27/18, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018, 2:15 PM












I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to

Hercules/380 the same way that

TCP/IP was added, so that I can

run MVS programs to communicate

with other bluetooth devices.



I'm also thinking about having a

bluetooth network to replace Fidonet

to some extent. Whenever two

bluetooth computers come in range

they can exchange newsgroup

messages.



So I can envisage this being used in

villages in the Philippines.



In addition to that there would be

village to village connections using

UUCP over the internet or something

like that.



BFN. Paul.
Amrith amrith_100_k@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-28 12:39:21 UTC
Permalink
ISPF or other 3270 based programs do not make good client. I think a http server for static web pages is being built in the 390 forum. MVS would make an excellent backend system even with just VSAM. A dynamic web server is the need of the hour. A servlet container may too complicated. I bet there are light weight alternatives in c. I am not sure how mvs380 would handle multiple requests for atl memory in the same address space if there are thousands of requests per second.
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 11:34 AM


 









That's a great question. So far my focus has

been on line-mode applications, but for a

news reader application I will need some

sort of menu system. I could use ISPF for

that.



Note that with Hercules/380 running under

Windows I can actually draw a graphics

display, and I could get micro-emacs

working in a similar manner. I got the first

page of 3270-based REVIEW to display (on

the Hercules integrated console) too.

If micro-emacs can work then that should

provide an alternative (to 3270 terminalsl)

way of displaying menus.



I would like to be able to do all my work on

MVS/380, and that means I need a way of

using MVS/380 to replace Yahoo Groups

so that I can read these messages. But note

that these messages are all text, so I don't

need a GUI, I just need a text menu system.

And I think the Hercules integrated console

is the proper place to display that, so that

I don't need a separate 3270/3215 terminal,

and it will rely on an extended SVC 120

API to drive the integrated console. I think

that ideally needs PUTLINE and GETLINE

intercepted so that I can run a STC or batch

job that invokes IKJEFT01 and output goes

to the integrated console. I think a menuing

program would drive the integrated console

using ANSI escape sequences, sent in

EBCDIC by programs like micro-emacs.

Probably with modifications to PDPCLIB to

get all input and output channeled through

the SVC 120 extended API instead of

PUTLINE/GETLINE.



I'm not 100% sure how this should all be done.

I'm not sure what prior art would suggest

either. Maybe prior art would suggest

channeling everything through TCP/IP calls.

After all, you can run emacs via a telnet

session.



BFN. Paul.



---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,
<***@yahoo.com> wrote :



Don't you think it would be easier to just use mobile
phones to send and receive messages rather than using a
batch based os without any gui. If you intent to use mvs380
as a back end for clients to communicate with each other
using gui then that's good.

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10/27/18, ***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Subject: [hercules-os380] bluetooth

To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018, 2:15 PM

























I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to



Hercules/380 the same way that



TCP/IP was added, so that I can



run MVS programs to communicate



with other bluetooth devices.







I'm also thinking about having a



bluetooth network to replace Fidonet



to some extent. Whenever two



bluetooth computers come in range



they can exchange newsgroup



messages.







So I can envisage this being used in



villages in the Philippines.







In addition to that there would be



village to village connections using



UUCP over the internet or something



like that.







BFN. Paul.

















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kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-28 13:16:00 UTC
Permalink
You're in an area I don't know much about, so
maybe you can explain in more detail. E.g. I
don't even know what a servlet is. I'm way
behind the times in some areas. I don't even
have a smartphone.

I think you are saying that for a message-reading
application, MVS/380 should be obtaining
messages from a VSAM dataset, and then
transmitting the data to google chrome or some
other web browser. Basically to end up with an
interface like we see on Yahoo Groups.

You may be right that this is the best approach,
but note that with the Hercules/380 mods, the
integrated console can be turned into a
graphics display on Windows, so that may be
a way forward.

I think I'm not really a big fan of graphics
though. I'm more interested in text applications,
which to me is what message reading is all
about, and I'm more interested in upgrading a
line mode interface to a fullscreen interface as
seen in ISPF, but still text - fixed-width font too,
as I'm mainly interested in seeing snippets of C
code being displayed properly. I'm also
interested in bringing deafblind users along,
where fancy graphics is useless, and deafblind
users in third world countries like India or the
Philippines where the cost of Braille readers
is prohibitive, so a system of Morse code
vibrators is more reasonable.

BFN. Paul.




---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoo.com> wrote :

ISPF or other 3270 based programs do not make good client. I think a http server for static web pages is being built in the 390 forum. MVS would make an excellent backend system even with just VSAM. A dynamic web server is the need of the hour. A servlet container may too complicated. I bet there are light weight alternatives in c. I am not sure how mvs380 would handle multiple requests for atl memory in the same address space if there are thousands of requests per second.
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 11:34 AM












That's a great question. So far my focus has

been on line-mode applications, but for a

news reader application I will need some

sort of menu system. I could use ISPF for

that.



Note that with Hercules/380 running under

Windows I can actually draw a graphics

display, and I could get micro-emacs

working in a similar manner. I got the first

page of 3270-based REVIEW to display (on

the Hercules integrated console) too.

If micro-emacs can work then that should

provide an alternative (to 3270 terminalsl)

way of displaying menus.



I would like to be able to do all my work on

MVS/380, and that means I need a way of

using MVS/380 to replace Yahoo Groups

so that I can read these messages. But note

that these messages are all text, so I don't

need a GUI, I just need a text menu system.

And I think the Hercules integrated console

is the proper place to display that, so that

I don't need a separate 3270/3215 terminal,

and it will rely on an extended SVC 120

API to drive the integrated console. I think

that ideally needs PUTLINE and GETLINE

intercepted so that I can run a STC or batch

job that invokes IKJEFT01 and output goes

to the integrated console. I think a menuing

program would drive the integrated console

using ANSI escape sequences, sent in

EBCDIC by programs like micro-emacs.

Probably with modifications to PDPCLIB to

get all input and output channeled through

the SVC 120 extended API instead of

PUTLINE/GETLINE.



I'm not 100% sure how this should all be done.

I'm not sure what prior art would suggest

either. Maybe prior art would suggest

channeling everything through TCP/IP calls.

After all, you can run emacs via a telnet

session.



BFN. Paul.



---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,
<***@yahoo.com mailto:***@yahoo.com> wrote :



Don't you think it would be easier to just use mobile
phones to send and receive messages rather than using a
batch based os without any gui. If you intent to use mvs380
as a back end for clients to communicate with each other
using gui then that's good.

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10/27/18, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Subject: [hercules-os380] bluetooth

To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018, 2:15 PM

























I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to



Hercules/380 the same way that



TCP/IP was added, so that I can



run MVS programs to communicate



with other bluetooth devices.







I'm also thinking about having a



bluetooth network to replace Fidonet



to some extent. Whenever two



bluetooth computers come in range



they can exchange newsgroup



messages.







So I can envisage this being used in



villages in the Philippines.







In addition to that there would be



village to village connections using



UUCP over the internet or something



like that.







BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-28 13:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
You're in an area I don't know much about, so
maybe you can explain in more detail.
Maybe you can provide a vision for the
future and where MVS/380 would fit
into that?

Also you mentioned multiple ATL GETMAINs.
Those should be fine, and not much different
from BTL GETMAINs. Gerhard implemented
that in assembler and I think it is fine.

BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 16:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
I am not sure how mvs380 would handle multiple
requests for atl memory in the same address
space if there are thousands of requests per second.
Those should be fine, and not much different
from BTL GETMAINs. Gerhard implemented
that in assembler and I think it is fine.
I decided to test this. It's not the greatest
test, but it is reasonable. Here is the
test code:

for (x = 0; x < 1000000; x++)
{
m2 = malloc(5);
free(m2);
}

ie 1 million mallocs and frees.

And here is it getting memory ATL for that:

AM31:
16.10.31 JOB 1 PDPMVS LKED IEWL RC= 0
16.10.44 JOB 1 PDPMVS PDPTEST PDPTEST RC= 0

Only 13 seconds for 1 million mallocs. So it
can do 77,000 mallocs per second.

Disabling MVS/380 so mallocs are done BTL
gives:

AM24:
16.16.02 JOB 1 PDPMVS LKED IEWL RC= 0
16.16.25 JOB 1 PDPMVS PDPTEST PDPTEST RC= 0

44,000 mallocs per second.

ie the MVS/380 code has sped things up. ie
Gerhard's code is beating IBM's code, at
least for this simple use of memory.

BFN. Paul.
Amrith amrith_100_k@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-28 16:01:06 UTC
Permalink
All that really means to deliver web pages dynamically to a browser. The server sits on MVS accepts http requests and sends a web page in response. A servlet container is many things but I will call it as a fancy way of saying we will use Java as the scripting language to accept the http request and service it. I believe that there are c implementations of web servers which allow alternate scripting to servlets. Considering the amazing technically complex stuff you have done, all this should be a piece of cake for you. The VSAM functions as a data store to the web server
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 1:16 PM


 









You're in an area I don't know much about,
so

maybe you can explain in more detail. E.g. I

don't even know what a servlet is. I'm way

behind the times in some areas. I don't even

have a smartphone.



I think you are saying that for a message-reading

application, MVS/380 should be obtaining

messages from a VSAM dataset, and then

transmitting the data to google chrome or some

other web browser. Basically to end up with an

interface like we see on Yahoo Groups.



You may be right that this is the best approach,

but note that with the Hercules/380 mods, the

integrated console can be turned into a

graphics display on Windows, so that may be

a way forward.



I think I'm not really a big fan of graphics

though. I'm more interested in text applications,

which to me is what message reading is all

about, and I'm more interested in upgrading a

line mode interface to a fullscreen interface as

seen in ISPF, but still text - fixed-width font too,

as I'm mainly interested in seeing snippets of C

code being displayed properly. I'm also

interested in bringing deafblind users along,

where fancy graphics is useless, and deafblind

users in third world countries like India or the

Philippines where the cost of Braille readers

is prohibitive, so a system of Morse code

vibrators is more reasonable.



BFN. Paul.



---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,
<***@yahoo.com> wrote :



ISPF or other 3270 based programs do not make good client. I
think a http server for static web pages is being built in
the 390 forum. MVS would make an excellent backend system
even with just VSAM. A dynamic web server is the need of the
hour. A servlet container may too complicated. I bet there
are light weight alternatives in c. I am not sure how mvs380
would handle multiple requests for atl memory in the same
address space if there are thousands of requests per second.


--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth

To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 11:34 AM

























That's a great question. So far my focus has



been on line-mode applications, but for a



news reader application I will need some



sort of menu system. I could use ISPF for



that.







Note that with Hercules/380 running under



Windows I can actually draw a graphics



display, and I could get micro-emacs



working in a similar manner. I got the first



page of 3270-based REVIEW to display (on



the Hercules integrated console) too.



If micro-emacs can work then that should



provide an alternative (to 3270 terminalsl)



way of displaying menus.







I would like to be able to do all my work on



MVS/380, and that means I need a way of



using MVS/380 to replace Yahoo Groups



so that I can read these messages. But note



that these messages are all text, so I don't



need a GUI, I just need a text menu system.



And I think the Hercules integrated console



is the proper place to display that, so that



I don't need a separate 3270/3215 terminal,



and it will rely on an extended SVC 120



API to drive the integrated console. I think



that ideally needs PUTLINE and GETLINE



intercepted so that I can run a STC or batch



job that invokes IKJEFT01 and output goes



to the integrated console. I think a menuing



program would drive the integrated console



using ANSI escape sequences, sent in



EBCDIC by programs like micro-emacs.



Probably with modifications to PDPCLIB to



get all input and output channeled through



the SVC 120 extended API instead of



PUTLINE/GETLINE.







I'm not 100% sure how this should all be done.



I'm not sure what prior art would suggest



either. Maybe prior art would suggest



channeling everything through TCP/IP calls.



After all, you can run emacs via a telnet



session.







BFN. Paul.







---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,

<***@yahoo.com
mailto:***@yahoo.com> wrote :







Don't you think it would be easier to just use
mobile

phones to send and receive messages rather than using a

batch based os without any gui. If you intent to use
mvs380

as a back end for clients to communicate with each other

using gui then that's good.



--------------------------------------------



On Sat, 10/27/18, ***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au

mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]

<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:







Subject: [hercules-os380] bluetooth



To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com



Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018, 2:15 PM



















































I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to







Hercules/380 the same way that







TCP/IP was added, so that I can







run MVS programs to communicate







with other bluetooth devices.















I'm also thinking about having a







bluetooth network to replace Fidonet







to some extent. Whenever two







bluetooth computers come in range







they can exchange newsgroup







messages.















So I can envisage this being used in







villages in the Philippines.















In addition to that there would be







village to village connections using







UUCP over the internet or something







like that.















BFN. Paul.



































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kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-28 16:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
All that really means to deliver web pages dynamically
to a browser. The server sits on MVS accepts http
requests and sends a web page in response. A servlet
container is many things but I will call it as a fancy way
of saying we will use Java as the scripting language
to accept the http request and service it. I believe that
there are c implementations of web servers which allow
alternate scripting to servlets.
So based on what you said previously, I am
guessing that this means that a Java interpreter
is too much to expect at the moment for
MVS/380. But you think an alternate scripting
language could be made available on MVS/380.
But that presumably means that people need
to write web pages in that language. But I guess
that doesn't matter either because this is
something internal to the MVS/380 application.
The browser is not aware of what is happening.
Is that correct?
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Considering the amazing technically complex
stuff you have done, all this should be a piece
of cake for you.
Please don't assume such a thing. If you
look at what I actually produce, you will
find that it is not very much code. E.g. I
am very happy with the @@SETUP code
that I wrote to cater for the AMODE/RMODE
issue on MVS. That is 72 lines of code
written after about 30 years of trying to
understand AMODE/RMODE.

Do you expect the dynamic webpage
hosting to be 72 lines of code? Note that
Jason Winter did something similar - a
small amount of code to make TCP/IP
available. It depends if you think the
project in question can be solved with
trickery or whether it's a major porting
effort. A native TCP/IP stack for MVS 3.8j
was going to be a major effort too.

I tend not to actually understand something
until the time comes for me to actually
write my own version of it. E.g. I only came
to understand what RECFM=U was after it
came time to add support for it to PDPCLIB.

Plus I choose to do things in a roundabout
manner such that I remain ignorant of much
technology so that I can invent my own way
of doing things, before seeing what the
normal way of doing things is so that I am
in a position to compare notes, instead of
having nothing to compare with.

So if you're basically saying "implementing a
native TCP/IP stack for MVS 3.8j should be
a piece of cake for someone with your
technical skills", you are sadly mistaken. :-)
It depends whether a trick is available or
not, in this case for the scripting language.
E.g. maybe CLIST or BREXX can be used.

Note that I'm not the only person who comes
up with tricks - somitcw's "separate memory"
proposal is another great trick. The solution
was so simple, but it took many years to
invent, and a degree of luck.

Note that MVS/380 2.0 beta is basically
about 2000 lines of code, mostly written
by Gerhard. Designed over more than a
decade of discussion.

So what's your estimate of the number of
lines of code to achieve what you want?
Also note that someone else in the
turnkey-mvs group has got static web
pages working, but for some reason
needed to rewrite PDPCLIB. I don't
actually understand why PDPCLIB
would need to be rewritten for this
application. It's another example of how
ignorant I am of some things, because
I've "never" (sort of) tried writing a web
server.

BFN. Paul.




--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 1:16 PM












You're in an area I don't know much about,
so

maybe you can explain in more detail. E.g. I

don't even know what a servlet is. I'm way

behind the times in some areas. I don't even

have a smartphone.



I think you are saying that for a message-reading

application, MVS/380 should be obtaining

messages from a VSAM dataset, and then

transmitting the data to google chrome or some

other web browser. Basically to end up with an

interface like we see on Yahoo Groups.



You may be right that this is the best approach,

but note that with the Hercules/380 mods, the

integrated console can be turned into a

graphics display on Windows, so that may be

a way forward.



I think I'm not really a big fan of graphics

though. I'm more interested in text applications,

which to me is what message reading is all

about, and I'm more interested in upgrading a

line mode interface to a fullscreen interface as

seen in ISPF, but still text - fixed-width font too,

as I'm mainly interested in seeing snippets of C

code being displayed properly. I'm also

interested in bringing deafblind users along,

where fancy graphics is useless, and deafblind

users in third world countries like India or the

Philippines where the cost of Braille readers

is prohibitive, so a system of Morse code

vibrators is more reasonable.



BFN. Paul.



---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,
<***@yahoo.com mailto:***@yahoo.com> wrote :



ISPF or other 3270 based programs do not make good client. I
think a http server for static web pages is being built in
the 390 forum. MVS would make an excellent backend system
even with just VSAM. A dynamic web server is the need of the
hour. A servlet container may too complicated. I bet there
are light weight alternatives in c. I am not sure how mvs380
would handle multiple requests for atl memory in the same
address space if there are thousands of requests per second.


--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth

To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 11:34 AM

























That's a great question. So far my focus has



been on line-mode applications, but for a



news reader application I will need some



sort of menu system. I could use ISPF for



that.







Note that with Hercules/380 running under



Windows I can actually draw a graphics



display, and I could get micro-emacs



working in a similar manner. I got the first



page of 3270-based REVIEW to display (on



the Hercules integrated console) too.



If micro-emacs can work then that should



provide an alternative (to 3270 terminalsl)



way of displaying menus.







I would like to be able to do all my work on



MVS/380, and that means I need a way of



using MVS/380 to replace Yahoo Groups



so that I can read these messages. But note



that these messages are all text, so I don't



need a GUI, I just need a text menu system.



And I think the Hercules integrated console



is the proper place to display that, so that



I don't need a separate 3270/3215 terminal,



and it will rely on an extended SVC 120



API to drive the integrated console. I think



that ideally needs PUTLINE and GETLINE



intercepted so that I can run a STC or batch



job that invokes IKJEFT01 and output goes



to the integrated console. I think a menuing



program would drive the integrated console



using ANSI escape sequences, sent in



EBCDIC by programs like micro-emacs.



Probably with modifications to PDPCLIB to



get all input and output channeled through



the SVC 120 extended API instead of



PUTLINE/GETLINE.







I'm not 100% sure how this should all be done.



I'm not sure what prior art would suggest



either. Maybe prior art would suggest



channeling everything through TCP/IP calls.



After all, you can run emacs via a telnet



session.







BFN. Paul.







---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,

<***@yahoo.com mailto:***@yahoo.com
mailto:***@yahoo.com mailto:***@yahoo.com> wrote :







Don't you think it would be easier to just use
mobile

phones to send and receive messages rather than using a

batch based os without any gui. If you intent to use
mvs380

as a back end for clients to communicate with each other

using gui then that's good.



--------------------------------------------



On Sat, 10/27/18, ***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au

mailto:***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]

<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:







Subject: [hercules-os380] bluetooth



To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com



Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018, 2:15 PM



















































I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to







Hercules/380 the same way that







TCP/IP was added, so that I can







run MVS programs to communicate







with other bluetooth devices.















I'm also thinking about having a







bluetooth network to replace Fidonet







to some extent. Whenever two







bluetooth computers come in range







they can exchange newsgroup







messages.















So I can envisage this being used in







villages in the Philippines.















In addition to that there would be







village to village connections using







UUCP over the internet or something







like that.















BFN. Paul.
Amrith amrith_100_k@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-29 13:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Yes and I don't think you going to accomplish that in 72 lines. A web server would be what's required and futuristic.
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 4:53 PM


 
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
All that really means to deliver web pages
dynamically
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
to a browser. The server sits on MVS accepts http
requests and sends a web page in response. A servlet
container is many things but I will call it as a fancy
way
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
of saying we will use Java as the scripting language
to accept the http request and service it. I believe
that
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
there are c implementations of web servers which
allow
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
alternate scripting to servlets.
So based on what you said previously, I am

guessing that this means that a Java interpreter

is too much to expect at the moment for

MVS/380. But you think an alternate scripting

language could be made available on MVS/380.

But that presumably means that people need

to write web pages in that language. But I guess

that doesn't matter either because this is

something internal to the MVS/380 application.

The browser is not aware of what is happening.

Is that correct?
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Considering the amazing technically complex
stuff you have done, all this should be a piece
of cake for you.
Please don't assume such a thing. If you

look at what I actually produce, you will

find that it is not very much code. E.g. I

am very happy with the @@SETUP code

that I wrote to cater for the AMODE/RMODE

issue on MVS. That is 72 lines of code

written after about 30 years of trying to

understand AMODE/RMODE.



Do you expect the dynamic webpage

hosting to be 72 lines of code? Note that

Jason Winter did something similar - a

small amount of code to make TCP/IP

available. It depends if you think the

project in question can be solved with

trickery or whether it's a major porting

effort. A native TCP/IP stack for MVS 3.8j

was going to be a major effort too.



I tend not to actually understand something

until the time comes for me to actually

write my own version of it. E.g. I only came

to understand what RECFM=U was after it

came time to add support for it to PDPCLIB.



Plus I choose to do things in a roundabout

manner such that I remain ignorant of much

technology so that I can invent my own way

of doing things, before seeing what the

normal way of doing things is so that I am

in a position to compare notes, instead of

having nothing to compare with.



So if you're basically saying "implementing a

native TCP/IP stack for MVS 3.8j should be

a piece of cake for someone with your

technical skills", you are sadly mistaken. :-)

It depends whether a trick is available or

not, in this case for the scripting language.

E.g. maybe CLIST or BREXX can be used.



Note that I'm not the only person who comes

up with tricks - somitcw's "separate
memory"

proposal is another great trick. The solution

was so simple, but it took many years to

invent, and a degree of luck.



Note that MVS/380 2.0 beta is basically

about 2000 lines of code, mostly written

by Gerhard. Designed over more than a

decade of discussion.



So what's your estimate of the number of

lines of code to achieve what you want?

Also note that someone else in the

turnkey-mvs group has got static web

pages working, but for some reason

needed to rewrite PDPCLIB. I don't

actually understand why PDPCLIB

would need to be rewritten for this

application. It's another example of how

ignorant I am of some things, because

I've "never" (sort of) tried writing a web

server.



BFN. Paul.



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth

To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 1:16 PM

























You're in an area I don't know much about,

so



maybe you can explain in more detail. E.g. I



don't even know what a servlet is. I'm way



behind the times in some areas. I don't even



have a smartphone.







I think you are saying that for a message-reading



application, MVS/380 should be obtaining



messages from a VSAM dataset, and then



transmitting the data to google chrome or some



other web browser. Basically to end up with an



interface like we see on Yahoo Groups.







You may be right that this is the best approach,



but note that with the Hercules/380 mods, the



integrated console can be turned into a



graphics display on Windows, so that may be



a way forward.







I think I'm not really a big fan of graphics



though. I'm more interested in text applications,



which to me is what message reading is all



about, and I'm more interested in upgrading a



line mode interface to a fullscreen interface as



seen in ISPF, but still text - fixed-width font too,



as I'm mainly interested in seeing snippets of C



code being displayed properly. I'm also



interested in bringing deafblind users along,



where fancy graphics is useless, and deafblind



users in third world countries like India or the



Philippines where the cost of Braille readers



is prohibitive, so a system of Morse code



vibrators is more reasonable.







BFN. Paul.







---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,

<***@yahoo.com
mailto:***@yahoo.com> wrote :







ISPF or other 3270 based programs do not make good client.
I

think a http server for static web pages is being built
in

the 390 forum. MVS would make an excellent backend
system

even with just VSAM. A dynamic web server is the need of
the

hour. A servlet container may too complicated. I bet
there

are light weight alternatives in c. I am not sure how
mvs380

would handle multiple requests for atl memory in the
same

address space if there are thousands of requests per
second.





--------------------------------------------



On Sun, 10/28/18, ***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au

mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]

<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:







Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth



To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com



Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018, 11:34 AM



















































That's a great question. So far my focus has







been on line-mode applications, but for a







news reader application I will need some







sort of menu system. I could use ISPF for







that.















Note that with Hercules/380 running under







Windows I can actually draw a graphics







display, and I could get micro-emacs







working in a similar manner. I got the first







page of 3270-based REVIEW to display (on







the Hercules integrated console) too.







If micro-emacs can work then that should







provide an alternative (to 3270 terminalsl)







way of displaying menus.















I would like to be able to do all my work on







MVS/380, and that means I need a way of







using MVS/380 to replace Yahoo Groups







so that I can read these messages. But note







that these messages are all text, so I don't







need a GUI, I just need a text menu system.







And I think the Hercules integrated console







is the proper place to display that, so that







I don't need a separate 3270/3215 terminal,







and it will rely on an extended SVC 120







API to drive the integrated console. I think







that ideally needs PUTLINE and GETLINE







intercepted so that I can run a STC or batch







job that invokes IKJEFT01 and output goes







to the integrated console. I think a menuing







program would drive the integrated console







using ANSI escape sequences, sent in







EBCDIC by programs like micro-emacs.







Probably with modifications to PDPCLIB to







get all input and output channeled through







the SVC 120 extended API instead of







PUTLINE/GETLINE.















I'm not 100% sure how this should all be done.







I'm not sure what prior art would suggest







either. Maybe prior art would suggest







channeling everything through TCP/IP calls.







After all, you can run emacs via a telnet







session.















BFN. Paul.















---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com,



<***@yahoo.com mailto:***@yahoo.com

mailto:***@yahoo.com
mailto:***@yahoo.com> wrote :















Don't you think it would be easier to just use

mobile



phones to send and receive messages rather than using a



batch based os without any gui. If you intent to use

mvs380



as a back end for clients to communicate with each other



using gui then that's good.







--------------------------------------------







On Sat, 10/27/18, ***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au

mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au



mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au

mailto:***@yahoo.com.au
mailto:***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]



<hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com



mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:















Subject: [hercules-os380] bluetooth







To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com



mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com







Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018, 2:15 PM







































































































I'm thinking of adding bluetooth to















Hercules/380 the same way that















TCP/IP was added, so that I can















run MVS programs to communicate















with other bluetooth devices.































I'm also thinking about having a















bluetooth network to replace Fidonet















to some extent. Whenever two















bluetooth computers come in range















they can exchange newsgroup















messages.































So I can envisage this being used in















villages in the Philippines.































In addition to that there would be















village to village connections using















UUCP over the internet or something















like that.































BFN. Paul.















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kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-29 15:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Yes and I don't think you going to accomplish that
in 72 lines. A web server would be what's required
and futuristic.
Ok, so someone else is already working on
that, and my contribution was making
GCCMVS available to them.

In the meantime I think what I should be
working on is getting UUCP to work over
bluetooth, under MVS, so that we can
use our MVS systems to exchange
messages (ie this group). Also get it
working over TCP/IP for when we're out
of bluetooth range, and as a substitute
for dial-up modems.

BFN. Paul.
Amrith amrith_100_k@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 09:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Dial up modems? Do they still make them?
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 10/29/18, ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018, 3:01 PM


 
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Yes and I don't think you going to accomplish
that
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
in 72 lines. A web server would be what's
required
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
and futuristic.
Ok, so someone else is already working on

that, and my contribution was making

GCCMVS available to them.



In the meantime I think what I should be

working on is getting UUCP to work over

bluetooth, under MVS, so that we can

use our MVS systems to exchange

messages (ie this group). Also get it

working over TCP/IP for when we're out

of bluetooth range, and as a substitute

for dial-up modems.



BFN. Paul.











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kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 10:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Dial up modems? Do they still make them?
I think they do, but I said I was *replacing*
UUCP over a telephone line by a TCP/IP
connection, the same way that Fidonet did.

BFN. Paul.
Joe Monk joemonk64@gmail.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 10:37:34 UTC
Permalink
yes they still make them.

https://www.multitech.com/brands/multimodem-zba

Joe
Dial up modems? Do they still make them?
--------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018, 3:01 PM
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Yes and I don't think you going to accomplish
that
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
in 72 lines. A web server would be what's
required
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
and futuristic.
Ok, so someone else is already working on
that, and my contribution was making
GCCMVS available to them.
In the meantime I think what I should be
working on is getting UUCP to work over
bluetooth, under MVS, so that we can
use our MVS systems to exchange
messages (ie this group). Also get it
working over TCP/IP for when we're out
of bluetooth range, and as a substitute
for dial-up modems.
BFN. Paul.
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'Fernando M. Roxo da Motta' mvs@roxo.org [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 16:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Dial up modems? Do they still make them?
Except for the not funny price of mobile connection, it is possible to
use them as a modem.
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
--------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018, 3:01 PM
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Yes and I don't think you going to accomplish
that
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
in 72 lines. A web server would be what's
required
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
and futuristic.
Ok, so someone else is already working on
that, and my contribution was making
GCCMVS available to them.
In the meantime I think what I should be
working on is getting UUCP to work over
bluetooth, under MVS, so that we can
use our MVS systems to exchange
messages (ie this group). Also get it
working over TCP/IP for when we're out
of bluetooth range, and as a substitute
for dial-up modems.
BFN. Paul.
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------------------------------------
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Roxo

--
---------------- Non luctari, ludare -------------------+ WYSIWYG
Fernando M. Roxo da Motta <***@roxo.org> | Editor?
Except where explicitly stated I speak on my own behalf.| VI !!
PU5RXO | I see text,
------------ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?-------------+ I get text!
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 16:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Fernando M. Roxo da Motta' ***@roxo.org [hercules-os380]
Dial up modems? Do they still make them?
Except for the not funny price of mobile connection,
it is possible to use them as a modem.
That's a brilliant idea. You could even run
a BBS on your mobile phone if you code
for it.

BFN. Paul.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 16:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Fernando M. Roxo da Motta' ***@roxo.org [hercules-os380]
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Dial up modems? Do they still make them?
Except for the not funny price of mobile connection, it is possible to
use them as a modem.
In some parts of this state there are towns without direct internet
connection, and there is a non-profit that provides services over
dial-up connections. The state utilities commission requires that the
first 8 minutes of monthly telephone use be free, so modest use is about
$15 per month. Satellite services are also available, but much more
expensive.

I would assume that other areas with low population density have similar
options.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Amrith amrith_100_k@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-30 12:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Awesome.
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 10/30/18, Joe Monk ***@gmail.com [hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2018, 10:37 AM


 









yes they still
make them.
https://www.multitech.com/brands/multimodem-zba

Joe
On Tue, Oct
30, 2018 at 4:29 AM Amrith ***@yahoo.com
[hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:















 









Dial up modems? Do they still make them?

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 10/29/18, ***@yahoo.com.au
[hercules-os380] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:



Subject: Re: [hercules-os380] bluetooth

To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

Date: Monday, October 29, 2018, 3:01 PM





 
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
Yes and I don't think you going to accomplish
that
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
in 72 lines. A web server would be what's
required
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
and futuristic.
Ok, so someone else is already working on



that, and my contribution was making



GCCMVS available to them.







In the meantime I think what I should be



working on is getting UUCP to work over



bluetooth, under MVS, so that we can



use our MVS systems to exchange



messages (ie this group). Also get it



working over TCP/IP for when we're out



of bluetooth range, and as a substitute



for dial-up modems.







BFN. Paul.























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Rahim Azizarab rahimazizarab@yahoo.com [hercules-os380]
2018-10-31 20:39:31 UTC
Permalink
I have been looking at HASP source on Mainframe.eu; and it appears that JES2 might be the more principled way to add a new device to MVS38.  I do not dispute that it is a bit more challenging doing it in JES2; and I am not even sure where to find the latest version of JES2 sources.  It will definitely be more of a challenge to rebuild JES2 with a new device driver and test it. 
The 0X75 type approach is more of hack.

regards;
Rahim 

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